LexRides

[John Reaves]

[seicer]

Not the entire block.

I'm advocating for infill on the parking lot and the buildings along Limestone. The Rite Aid building isn't all that great IMO and if it was demolished, it would become very attractive for potential developers. I have reservations about the Triple Crown Lounge -- I really loved going there and the building is historic, but I'm not for sure a developer would feel the same way. An infill of five or six stories would be fantastic -- it would be an appropriate scale for the surrounding buildings along Limestone and Vine, would not be so overbearing to require an underground parking structure (perhaps one level incorporated into the basement), and could still connect to the Park Plaza garage. It would add density, fill in a nasty surface lot, and would still keep venues like The Dame open.

I talked to the Webb Cos. today. They have _no_ intention of placing either The Dame or Mia's in Centrepointe. No shock there. I think the Kernel reported on this today as well.
_________________
Sherman Cahal | Cincy Rides

[seicer]

Uh oh... looks like some of the awful characteristics of the past Webb projects are making a return here...

CENTREPOINTE'S PLACE IN DOWNTOWN LEXINGTON
Sizing up the project
Concerns swirl over plans for skyscraper
By Beverly Fortune, Herald-Leader, March 6, 2008



A rendering of a 40-story skyscraper proposed for downtown Lexington has stirred debate beyond whether to preserve a dozen historic buildings on the block and the entertainment businesses they house.

A day after the project was officially announced, some architects and others raised this question: How big is too big?

The $250 million CentrePointe project -- with a 273-room hotel, 77 condominiums and 26,000 square feet of retail space -- would take the entire block bounded by Main, Upper and Vine streets and North Limestone.

"It's very troubling because of its size," said Graham Pohl, a Lexington architect who frequently writes about architecture.

Vice Mayor Jim Gray, who expressed concern about the scale of the buildings at the Urban County Council's Tuesday work session, said the Downtown Master Plan that cost $400,000 and involved input from hundreds of citizens called for a maximum building height of 15 stories in the downtown core.

"You can't ask people for their input, get community consensus and then ignore it," he said.

That recommendation in the downtown plan was taken out when the plan went before the Planning Commission for approval. The commission said it needed more study, said Harold Tate, president of the Downtown Development Authority.

Charlie Barnhart, one of the architects for the project, described the skyscraper, with a stair-step look at several different heights, as "very responsive to the scale of buildings in downtown Lexington." The base of the building is "intentionally limited to four stories in direct response to the Courthouse Area guidelines," he said.

Much of the block is in the Courthouse Design Review Area, and subject to design guidelines. One guideline said that new construction should appear similar in mass and scale to nearby buildings.

The 406-foot tower, Barnhart said, will not be seen by pedestrians on the street. "To see the tower, you have to get on the edge of the street and look straight up," he said.

To some early critics of the proposed development, drawings of the building released Tuesday appear to show other problems: stretches of concrete wall along the sidewalk, shops that can be entered only from an interior mall, skywalks and a pedestrian-unfriendly feeling.

However, Barnhart said those impressions are wrong. He said the drawing is meant to show only the building's mass, not design details such as columns and storefronts. "That's the risk of showing a design that is not finished," he said. "The design is still evolving."

On North Limestone and Upper, the CentrePointe building would have retail shops accessible from the sidewalk with large windows and awnings, Barnhart said. All retail space could be entered from the outside.

Many cities are pulling down skywalks built in the 1980s as a way to get people walking on sidewalks. The CentrePointe development shows two skyways -- one connecting the hotel to a proposed garage on part of Phoenix Park on North Limestone, another connecting to the Financial Center garage on Upper Street.

Barnhart said he did not know whether the skywalks "will ultimately survive" or be eliminated.

Others who saw the plan also questioned why it appears to be oriented toward Vine Street instead of Main Street. But developer Dudley Webb said the main entrance to the hotel will be on Main Street with a circular drive, a covered entrance, brass revolving doors and a doorman. There will also be an entrance to the hotel off Vine Street with some parking for guests.

David Mohney, former dean of the University of Kentucky College of Design, raised concerns about the heft of the project, saying it appears too large for a downtown that "is small in size and small in scale." He said he thought there was "a whole range of little tweaks" that would improve its design.

He also said it is time Lexington had a professional peer review process established for new downtown buildings where other architects offer "tweaks that can tighten up the design."

The Blue Grass Trust for Historic Preservation issued a statement Wednesday saying it is disappointed that plans for the mixed-use project show that historic buildings on the site will be razed. The city's oldest preservation group said it backed redevelopment of the block, but wants it done in a way that blends the new with the historic.

While some other mixed-use projects downtown have struggled to fill their retail space, Webb expressed confidence in filling his space because of the 77 condominiums and guests coming to the hotel. "We have critical mass that can support retail," he said.

Webb said he already has commitments for 10,000 square feet of the retail space. Part of that will be for a wine, cheese and fruit store that Webb said will be locally owned.

Next week, a meeting of the CentrePointe architects, engineers and city representatives will be held to do further planning on the project.

Webb said interested groups or citizens can ask questions or express concerns to the project's architects and engineers by calling his office at (859) 253-0000.
_________________
Sherman Cahal | Cincy Rides

[seicer]

Responses from tourism industry vary widely
By Jim Jordan, Herald-Leader, March 6, 2008

When a 267-room luxury hotel was proposed last month for the Kentucky Horse Park, managers of nearby hotels said the $90 million facility was unnecessary and unlikely to reach the occupancy levels forecast by developers.

On Tuesday, developers announced plans to build the $250 million CentrePointe complex, including a 243-room luxury hotel. The response from hotel and tourism executives ranged from muted to enthusiastic.

They said the CentrePointe hotel is downtown and won't offer direct competition to the Marriott Griffin Gate Resort and other hotels off I-75/64 near the Horse Park.

In addition, CentrePointe is expected to help the city attract more and larger conventions and meetings to the Lexington Convention Center, and it will meet the need of the University of Kentucky and downtown businesses for a luxury hotel for important visitors.

It also will satisfy the desires of aging, upscale baby-boomers for service, convenience and luxury, said David Lord, president of the Lexington Convention and Visitors Bureau.

The new attitude of many boomers is "if you give me quality, if you give me service, I'll pay the price," Lord said.

At CentrePointe, the price will be at least as high as the $175 a night proposed for the Horse Park Westin, but less than the $400 or more demanded by luxury hotels around the country, said Dudley Webb, one of CentrePointe's developers.

The CentrePointe hotel will be "a four-star plus" on a five-star scale, he said.

The hotel's occupancy projections will be made public in a few weeks when the developers file their application for tax increment financing. TIF allows some developers to get back part of their investment by keeping the income and property taxes generated by the project over a 30-year period.

The average occupancy of Lexington's downtown hotels increased 5.3 percent to about 65 percent in 2007, Lord said. It was 61.7 percent in 2006.

Meanwhile, the average room rate rose 6.1 percent "and that was reflective of the rest of the country," Lord said. "We don't always track the rest of the country, so that was good."

Larry Bell, general manager of the Hyatt Regency in the Lexington Center complex, declined to comment on the need for a new hotel about two blocks from the Hyatt.

Bell, who has previously managed the Webb-developed Radisson Plaza Hotel across Broadway from Lexington Center, agreed that the average downtown occupancy for hotels is "in the low to mid-60s" and said, "That's relatively anemic in comparison to other areas of the country."

"The hotel market in Lexington is challenging and so I'm sure it's difficult to get new projects financed ... particularly when your market is in the low- to mid-60s in occupancy percentage," Bell said.

He noted that the Hyatt is undergoing a complete renovation and said that project should provide "a bit of a lift to the market. As our hotel is renovated, Lexington should be more competitive for additional conventions, which should help everyone."

Lord said about 10 percent of the groups that decided not to meet in Lexington last year said it was because there are too few hotel rooms downtown. "These groups don't like to get on buses any more" and want to be within walking distance of events, he said.

But, Lord added, "the bar keeps being raised" by other cities. "Everybody else has to continue increasing their game, too," he said.

Webb said most major Lexington hotels, including those built by The Webb Cos., are 20 to 25 years old. Renovations at the Hyatt and Radisson will help attract tourists, but they won't meet the need for luxury rooms, he said.

"That upper end of the market, that's where we need to be," Webb said.

There's also room for the Westin at the Horse Park, he said. "They might perceive it (CentrePointe) as competition, but we don't perceive them as competition," he said. "They are in a totally different market."

Mark Jeffrey, general manager of the Marriott Griffin Gate Resort near the Horse Park, agreed with Webb that the I-75/64 area is a separate market that won't be greatly affected by CentrePointe.

"Downtown does not have an adequate number of quality guest rooms down there to support the (Lexington) center," said Jeffrey, who has strongly criticized the Horse Park hotel project.

CentrePointe "makes more sense" than the Horse Park hotel, he said. Besides, artist renderings of CentrePointe look "magnificent."
_________________
Sherman Cahal | Cincy Rides

[jkizzle]

COMPLETE BULLSHIT!

Sherman Carter Barnhart is the firm responsible for basically every blunder in downtown.

To say that it will supply the need for a very nice hotel for guests of the university and other downtown developments -- what about Gratz Park Inn? That is where the College of Design puts up all their high profile guests. To say that the market is there is preposterous! They cant even sell enough of the Blackhorse Condos to even start construction, and the Nunn and Rose on Main or whatever are renting units out because they cant be sold, from what I have heard. Also, 3 and 4 star hotel occupancy in fayette county i believe sits between 45-65% with a median rate of like 105 dollars or something, how does adding another 250 rooms at likely 150$+ help that out? (Those statistics could be wrong, they are from vauge memories)

It is nice to know that Jim Gray is on the right side, especially when it is likely his family who is competing for the job. He has been a great patron of the arts and really supports the artistic community. Maybe he can help the make this thing work.

Again, 40 stories is just too much. I could see 15 or 20, on half the block, working just fine and still make it seem the core of downtown. There is no need for a hotel to try to compete with the height and coldness of the financial center on the end of downtown.

[elzie5000]

Interesting bit in the paper about the state revising the rules for TIF funding and not approving anything new until the revisions are finished.

The delay and/or changes to the program could have major impact on whether ol'cock-n-balls happens. (I refuse to use that other stupid name for it)

http://www.kentucky.com/211/story/338478.html

[brokebike]

hey Logan, you could just apply the same pretense to the spelling...

how about something like, "Ye Olde Cocke N' Bawls Shoppes"
_________________
------------[] O

[alex]

good ole cocke n' balles

[brokebike]

Call me a cynic, but I just don't see how any good can come of this project for downtown's future, other than the thought that it may, at some point down the road, spur some innovative reaction from the younger generation of Lexington residents to come up with ways to fill this huge void in the energy of downtown that we'll be left with if this should all go down.

I know I am preaching to the choir here, but I just want to say to all of you that if you oppose this like I think most of us on here do, by all means, make every phone call you can, write every Letter to the Editor you can, attend every meeting that you can... whatever it takes to make the opposition be heard.

Hell, write to Jim Gray... write to Newberry. Flood their in-boxes with the fact that we voted for them and as such, we feel that they are the representatives of our voices and our ideals concerning the future of downtown. This poorly-designed "ego monument" to Lexington's old guard aristocracy goes against everything we would want or hope for our downtown.
_________________
------------[] O

[Christopher]

I know it's early days, but is there any organized resistance yet? Any one already existing group that we can tack our dissenting views onto, or coalescing umbrella group for the otherwise disparate interests that you would think would be against this (small biz owners, green space advocates, people with views of downtown whose property values will go down because of the new eyesore in the skyline)?

Meanwhile, the contact info for the Mayor, Vice Mayor, and Councilmembers can be found at this webpage. There's a map there, too, so you can figure out who your Councilmember is if you don't know already.
_________________
http://www.lexingtonbikeracecalendar.com

[brokebike]

also, here's a direct link to the H-L's Letters to The Editor submission page, because it's kinda difficult to find on their site:

http://www.kentucky.com/369/
_________________
------------[] O

[politicalhero]

So I am covered up with icky state politics right now but here is another action.

As brokebike said, contact everyone and let them know how much you are against this cock. Make sure you are given a chance to explain why.

Additionally, contact the council folks who have already spoken out against this. Make sure they feel our support because if they feel alone or unsupported when it comes to vote time (if this needs one) then they will cave quick.

Go down and visit them. Schedule a meeting etc...make your voice heard but make your presence be felt.

[charlenemingus]

I don't know the folks at Preserve Lexington but it looks like they are working with other groups interested in stopping the destruction of downtown.
The council members who seemed the most disapproving of the proposed Webb development were, Andrea James, Dick DeCamp, Jim Gray, and
Tom Blues. Dick DeCamp was the most critical, but that might be b/c part of his disctrict is downtown. Council members Linda Gordon and Jay McChord seemed to think the Webb Dev. was a good idea. Jay McChord was really hung up on the idea that it be good for our economy (off course that's a load of crap).

"A couple of days ago Preserve Lexington met with representatives of the historic preservation, arts, entertainment and design communities to discuss the latest related to the proposed Webb development of what has become known publicly, and I think affectionately, as the Dame block.
While we have been thinking about and planning our response to this development for many months, this was the first time we had met with representatives of other groups with an interest in this issue.
Very soon you will be hearing more about our organizing efforts, as we reach out to the broader community for support and action.
But in the meantime, I just wanted to share a few news items, and a few thoughts as we begin a campaign to preserve one of the most important areas of our city. "

[charlenemingus]

Check out Nick Kidd's response to the destruction of the downtown music scene, No Live Preview, in the March '08 issue of the Nougat, pg. 11.

https://www.nougatmagazine.com/archive.php

It's down loadable at a pdf.

[seicer]

I need to get some more street-level scenes. I have more of downtown at my depreciated site (needs some serious work).


^ The tower will literally be in front of you. All of the buildings in the foreground would be demolished in the image. The ones in the immediate foreground are the ones I won't miss, given that they are non-historic or would make the property invaluable if kept. If the buildings along Limestone were demolished, those lots and the parking lot would make for a very attractive infill -- of say, something less than 15 stories.


^ The building would be immediately in front of you. See that big white concrete wall? That's the Lexington Financial Center parking garage.


^ The dense collection of buildings in the lower left would be demolished.


^ ...lower right.


^ This is the sampling along Limestone that I wouldn't care too much about if they were gone for infill on an more appropriate scale. While the Triple Crown Lounge on the left is a historic building, it could be relocated or infill could be designed around that corner structure. At any rate, the bar has since closed The ghost wall that you see is from the former Woolworth's building.


^ The Webb Cos. design such beautiful downtown buildings.


^ The failed Festival Market at bottom.


^ Such brown glory!
_________________
Sherman Cahal | Cincy Rides